#07 - From Compliance to Connection: ESG Storytelling Insights with Shubha Madhukar

And my whole thing was to study design, but somewhere along the line, I got bit by the content bug and I started freelancing to just test the waters, whether I have it in me or not. And at that point in time, it didn’t really seem like a career choice. But I realized that I’d made the right choice, so I enrolled myself in a class for journalism and got to learn the writing and the editing tools and techniques and how to go about it.

And then I joined the corporate sector. A large Indian group, and there’s been no looking back. A little later, I felt that, okay, if I move to the agency side, I’ll get more exciting work to do. And that’s how I moved there. And gosh, am I glad about it. It’s given me such wonderful experiences, fantastic work, I feel blessed.

I think it’s awesome because when I first heard you speak at the ESG conference, the power of storytelling and ESG, it just hit me, correct, because communication is so fundamental and we could use it across any vertical and this being a show on how we bring awareness on ESG and sustainability,

who better than you can help us tell the story and the power of storytelling in ESG? So maybe you can start by saying, in this particular sector, because it’s easier when we talk about visual media and we talk about art, we can connect with communication in that sense. But ESG and sustainability, how do you tell stories around that?

And maybe you can share some examples in your experience, what you’ve done. You know, ESG in general, it’s become such a big deal for companies these days. It’s at the heart of what a brand stands for. And when you are talking about the brand to your stakeholders, there’s no other way than to tell it in the best possible way through a story.

And whether you are telling a story about a business or a community or ESG, it’s all the same. The fundamentals and the rules of storytelling applies here also. What I notice is that companies have achieved remarkable things in ESG, and they have tons of data around it and it is also reported because it’s part of compliance.

And yet, there are studies which show that they are actually taken as greenwashing. Yes, correct. And why is that because there is a trust deficit about how authentic those claims are. And here is where storytelling comes into the picture. So you see, when you are sharing data, the job of the data is to inform you about what happened.

But the job of a story is to help you connect with it. It makes you feel what happens. So you connect with it and then you have emotions and therefore it has better impact on you and therefore the importance of storytelling in anything you do and ESG is no different at all. And if I think about examples, honestly, there are many examples which I’m very fond of, but the one that is at the top of my mind is this film Status 2030 by Apple.

It’s a film about mother nature. So the film opens up and mother nature walks into a boardroom and she is taking a report from everybody on what Apple has been doing on its commitment for 2030, and it’s fabulous. It’s just plain, simple words being used, but it’s scripted so well.

So Mother Nature is asking about, okay, what are you doing for transportation? And they say that we have moved to transporting all our products by ocean and thereby cutting down on emissions by 95%. What are you doing with material? So we’ve eliminated all plastics from our packaging and aluminum is going to be the material in our products.

What are you doing for energy? And everything that Apple runs, whether it is their offices or shops or data centers is on clean energy. So it’s just a report card of the various things, the various commitments they have made, and it’s just told in such an interesting way. It’s scripted so well, there’s a lot of authenticity and transparency wherever they have not completed, achieved it, they say that, okay, they are working on it. It’s work in progress. So that comes in and the whole story is told in a very humorous way. Okay. So mother nature is very strict. She comes across as strict, but she’s very fair also. And she ticks all the points in the report card for them. It’s the five minute story in that film.

And when you see that, in those five minutes you’ve created an impact for all your stakeholders. External stakeholders, mostly customers and investors. As a customer, I feel, hey, this is a company I need to continue buying from. Or if I’m not on Apple, I’ll say I must buy from Apple. They have a sustainable company.

And what does it do for internal audiences? Pride, pure pride. You look at it and you feel, oh my God, this is the company I feel so proud working for. This could not have been achieved if they said that, okay, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 things, I’m printing the data, I’m sharing it on the website. It’s the story which has created that emotion and has connected and has a deep impact on all stakeholders.

I think it’s a beautiful way of conveying a message as well, correct? Without having very seriousness to, because people look at compliance as check the box, or it’s something that you have to comply because somebody has put some structure or somebody has a stick behind you. But I think the way you were explaining it to me, I think it brings people to connect at their own levels and look at the value of the organization as well. I think it’s a beautiful way to say, hey, this is the tone at the top, and this is what our vision is and how are we fulfilling it and how are we walking the talk? So I think it’s a visualization of that.

It’s also sharing what they are doing, as you said, internally, as well as externally to connect the dots whether it’s ESG or any other domain, correct? I think it can also be an influencer in what could be done better. You, I think, bring to table people who have not been involved in the journey to come forward to connect with the story itself.

I think that’s a very beautiful way that you put with example. Thank you for that. So when you craft these stories for your audiences or you know for your customers, what are the key elements that you take into account like if you were to come and advise somebody about? Because where I’m coming from is ESG is a very dry topic.

Not everybody connects with…

Or is it? It is people think it’s like green planet. It’s somebody always preaching and it’s somebody else’s job always. Correct. But the way I feel it as an ESG individual who was involved in it, is passionate about it. I feel everybody has a role to play.

So when we look at the strategy, I think there are some key elements and I would love to learn from you what those elements are. You know, in journalism, they say that you should have a nose for news. You sniff news. Similarly, even though ESG seems to be a dry subject, there are all these data and tons of data.

You need that eye to see that, okay, what is the story behind it? So the first and foremost thing to make any story very successful from a company’s point of view is to be very clear about what message do you want to lead with your stakeholders? Okay. And of course this should align with your ESG commitment and goals.

And with that, as the backbone that, okay, this is my messaging, you have to look at how do you bring, provide context and relevance to what your message is. For instance, for a company where water is material to you, you have to showcase how, as a responsible corporate citizen, you are taking care of it while bringing to your customers the products they love.

That is very important. And then you also need to take care that you don’t overwhelm your stakeholders with too much information, and you have to still highlight the tangible outcomes. You have to show the positive impact of your ESG initiatives, and you have to be very sure that you bring in authenticity and transparency.

There was this PwC study, which was done last year, and they found that 94 percent of investors do not believe in the sustainability claims companies are making. Yeah. So how do you counter that when you are showing just the numbers? It’s not doing the job, but when you bring in real people, real examples, that is when you are creating an emotional appeal.

And that is very important for a successful story. So it should have a clear messaging. You should break it down for people. You should bring in real people and tell real stories. You will have photographs, you will have video clips, you’ll have quotes and what you would have done in the process is that you have humanized the data that you have and therefore you’re making it very engaging and impactful for everyone who is going through it.

Taking that a little further Shubha, like how do we take this humanization aspect and bring the ROI aspect because when we are pitching this for stakeholders at the corporate level, I think the essence of what we bring, the attributes that we kind of showcase are very different, correct? So in your journey and in your experience, how have you taken those core elements to show the ROI, because I think that is one of the factors supporting us to move forward in the ESG journey as such. I agree there a hundred percent. And in fact, the way ESG is evolving, there is a requirement to connect your ESG efforts and initiatives with the financial performance and growth of the company very much, and here is the role where you need to balance data with storytelling in your communication so that it’s not just very dry data only, which does not create the kind of appeal that you want.

It’s also being balanced by some other elements that you do. Sharing data is very important, and you have to show how it fits into the larger ESG goals for you, but for humanizing it and making it easier for people to understand, you need to bring in storytelling. Now, storytelling is both an art and a science. Okay. So what it does is that when you are telling a story, it triggers the release of feel good hormones, such as dopamine, oxytocin, endorphins.

And these hormones actually evoke emotion in you. And it prepares you to receive information and it helps you to remember the information or message that is coming to you. So you should always begin with a story and then you should bring in your data points which support those stories. And it’s like a sandwich approach.

You begin with a story. You share the data that is going to support all your points that you’re making and to wrap it up, you end it with reinforcing the impact of the story once again. Perfect. So I think you’re telling that it’s a very good balance of data and narratives of how we bring that, supported by the communication that needs to go along with them on both sides, correct? And then so if you had to place the storytelling in the context of regulations, because we started with compliance. So in your experience if you have to go to a boardroom and say, hey guys, why should I give a budget for you to invest in ESG?

And what would your answer be? How would you prepare for that? This reminds me of a real world scenario, actually, that we were working with one of the cement majors in India, and it’s a manufacturing company, so safety is big for them, so safety and employees, so that becomes the social part of the whole dynamics, and there was an unfortunate incident where employee, a workshop member was hurt you know, then the entire organization woke up to the need for educating and informing the employees, the shop floor workers, and a lot of work was done around that.

So earlier we were working with the comms head of this company and it was very difficult for them to get budgets for this because they don’t see the direct connect and it was very difficult. But when this incident happened and they worked on some communication, storytelling for their employees and for two years there was no incident.

And when they took this example to the board, they realized it, and then there was no shortage of funds coming in. So it is necessary for you to showcase, link what you’re doing. Communication, unfortunately, is not seen as something which will have a bearing, direct bearing on the ROI. And therefore it gets sidelined, but if you are able to showcase what communication can prevent the risks it can mitigate.

What it can bring, the value it can create, then it becomes easier to get those funds you’re talking about. Correct. I think it’s because a lot of people, the societal aspect of it, correct? Because it’s easier to quantify our E aspect of it, the environment, where there’s carbon footprinting. And I think governance has played, has been in the industry through other regulations, but showcasing the connection between EG and the S, which is actually the critical factor.

And I think I’ve heard you talk about humanization, connecting with people, which is very essential. Direct ROI for those is a difficult sell, especially, you know, if a company has not envisioned that. So I think it’s very important, as you said, to take those use cases, build the use cases, take the outcomes of it, connect it back, and then show the ROI like by saying no incident.

We’ve not had X amount of the money that’s been spent on maybe, creating that support system for somebody who’s maybe had an accident and things like that. So it’s very essential for us to help them think that way. So from an advocacy perspective, what have you done as you’ve gone in your journey and in your book, I think it’s very well said, Sway Minds how do you sway people towards what they should be doing in the ESG space, so what is the trick of the trade there?

I keep coming back to the point that being able to share your story in the right manner is what makes the real impact and there are so many examples to support this that this is what really works. There are all kinds of people out there, right? When you’re talking to your stakeholders, you will find that they are across generations.

For instance, you find that there are some skeptics and skeptics not necessarily are outside the organization, they are within the organization also. So how do you address them? How do you make them see the point? And that’s why we, as an agency, we call ourselves corporate storytellers.

Because we see that there is no, everyone loves a good story and there is no message, which cannot be told through a good story. Okay? And that’s the reason why we take that storytelling route to address each concern. Plus storytelling also allows you to reach out to different people in different ways.

People also have different preferences of how they want to consume information. Somebody may be visual, auditory, kinesthetic and based on those learning preferences, you may like a video or you may like to read long text or you may want to listen to podcasts.

So it allows you to, it’s inclusive. If you’re doing it in various formats and you are present in various channels, you’re very inclusive and you can be sensitive as well to the concerns of your stakeholders. So there’s this example, which comes to my mind about Kind Foods. It’s this company which makes almond bars, which is very popular.

So the Kind Bar is made with almonds, which are grown sustainably. So the company can talk and say that, okay the almonds that we use are very sustainable, used sustainable farming practices. But instead of just saying that what they did is that they take you to a farm, they make you meet the farmer.

The farmer shares the various sustainable farming practices they are using and how it takes less water to grow almonds. So you’ve seen the farms, you’ve understood the science, you’ve met the farmer who is doing this all, and water being material to kind is well explained through the whole exercise.

Beautiful. And I think I can also sense just listening to you walk me through that journey. It’s easy not to get data facts as well, correct? Because it’s easy to say, how much water has been consumed less or what are they recycling? What is repurposing? So it’s the visual that along goes the story that goes along with it to support the metrics. I think that’s a very beautiful example. So in some cases, do you think this is a good method to even overcome some of the challenges that we face? Whether it’s like from a regulatory perspective, correct? How do you quantify? Because we started with greenwashing as such.

So have you seen companies use the art of storytelling to support that, hey, we actually do this and this is our audit trail. Or what we are doing from an ESG space. And this is how we are supporting, how we’re meeting our goals. So it takes away the concept that people are greenwashing in that sense, that provides some kind of an audit by itself.

So have you seen any companies do that?

So one of the companies that we work with, it is a large group in India, the Aditya Birla Group. They are in several businesses and which ranges from real estate to mining and retail, the whole hog. So dozens of companies together and they have the group level commitment goals for 2030, for instance, and then each company is contributing to that.

Okay. From a regulatory perspective, the essential reporting happens and those numbers are there. And there are tons of data, of course, because they are doing so much in all areas, energy, water, social, everywhere. The issue of greenwashing actually arises when these numbers are not supported with real.

How do you show that they are authentic? That is when the problem comes in, that is this greenwashing. To take care of that, what we did for this particular group is to go out in the field, meet the real people, see what the impact is. We took bites from them. We took photographs. So one of the responsibilities, ESG practitioners, they’re doing so much good work and they are collecting data points as well.

But one of the responsibilities is also to document it. And document it from the storytelling point of view. So when you sit down to write a story, and if you do not have this documentation, you don’t have the pictures, you don’t have the quotes, then it’s very difficult to weave in a real story which can evoke emotion.

Okay. So while you’re e doing what you’re supposed to do, as an ESG practitioner or as a company, it’s a responsibility to document those as well. Okay. Before, after, during. Who got impacted? Somebody talking on video. Somebody sending in a quote. That is what humanizes your data. Perfect. Okay. Okay. This is what we did with this company and there are, and it’s an ongoing process. It’s not a one time activity. We do it every month for them and it ranges from water to energy to biodiversity, everything. Perfect Shubha. I think you said it very well and saying that it’s an ongoing journey, correct?

And it’s a holistic journey in the sense from before, after, along the way. Yes. And what are the core elements that we have to keep in mind, because it’s very easy for us to collect data, as you said, but collecting the other attributes and the other collaterals that go along with it I think it’s wonderful that you point out on that and say, hey, guys, as ESG practitioners, as ESG leaders, start thinking about it.

So thanks for that tip. I think the next question I would love to come to you is the impact of Gen Z’s. I think Gen Z’s are actually our true leaders who are leading the ESG and sustainability space, pushing us to think, do better, taking a stance compared to the generation before that.

So how do you see this impact of storytelling across the generational divide and the perspectives that you probably are seeing different segments bringing them together? Yeah, I love the Gen Z’s. I love them too. They hold me accountable. Yeah, you know what I love about them is that they’re very quick to spot in sincerity.

And that, so when you are communicating with them, you have to bring in that authenticity and transparency very much. And they detest jargon, and ESG is full of it. The very term ESG, outside the ESG space, is a jargon. Most people, especially when it comes to B2C customers, they don’t understand what ESG is.

And this Gen Z’s, they are also very visual. So they are the guys who would be on would like to interact with her YouTube shorts or the reels. So the way you are telling story, it’s not necessary that you write out the story always and have a picture over there. There are many ways to do good storytelling.

For instance, you could do a photo feature, photo essay. Yeah. So with beautiful pictures explaining what the picture is about. And we’ve done some fascinating work in photo features, doing photo essays as well. You could create one piece of content. One photo essay. You can do a video. Your video can be large, like a well planned out five minute, three minute video.

But it could also be very quick videos. You know those 30 seconders? Where you focus on one message only. You do not complicate it. You keep it simple. And you shoot it in a natural environment. Again, with millennials and Gen Zs, the trend is they’re not looking for very fancy videos.

They’re looking for audio visual as a medium to communicate with them, but they’re happy when it is in the natural setting. Okay. No big cameras and lights, cameras, action. No. Somebody shooting it just on a smartphone maybe. Yeah, and they are interacting with them because they feel that this is the authentic one.

This is the real communication. This is real storytelling. And we find that is working beautifully all across, even with the traditionalists, somebody who is 80 plus now. Interestingly, they grew up at a time when climate change and there weren’t those issues there. Yeah, so they’ve lived a different life.

And when they see this world. They’re actually a worried lot, so the storytelling which works or the communication that works with them is when you tell them that how your communication for your ESG efforts are going to take care of the future generations. And this generation, while they like reading newspapers a lot, physical newspapers, they’re also as much on mobile phones.

Yeah, I think the consumption of the story and how the media in which the story is consumed is what you’re highlighting. And I think as next gens, I think you share the perspective being real, I think that was the key word there. Yeah. Yeah. It’s what they’re looking for and it’s for them it’s instant, correct.

It’s as it’s happening is what they want the content to be delivered for which being in the right place, right time, conveying the message at a point in time is very essential. Yes, so they’re looking for, like we said, that it’s a continuous process and they’re looking for progress reports from you also.

It’s okay, you’ve started your journey. Tell me about it. Okay. It’s okay. You’re facing a challenge. Tell me about it. They want to be part of the journey. Yes. I think that is very important. What you said just now is being along the journey and not being hesitant to share our challenges because they would like to be involved in it.

Or maybe they feel, I have my own daughter. She says I think I have to set things right for the generation that has not taken care of. So I see that kind of connection that happens there. So I’m sure you’re seeing that as you build the stories as well. Yeah. And you know, when you spoke at the conference, you brought a perspective of cultural perspective.

How important it is to connect the dots with the culture. And it could be the culture of the organization. It could be the culture of where the organization is and who do they work with. It could add a lot, correct? So when you’re bringing those ESG stories what would you keep in mind to draw that from?

How do you bring the cultural aspect of it? Yeah, in fact, drawing on cultural narratives can be very powerful in storytelling. When you tap into local traditions, all the cultural practices, you can create narratives that feel more authentic and relatable to the local communities and stakeholders.

And one example that comes to my mind is that of a beautiful ad film. It was by Fevicol. Fevicol is India’s most trusted adhesive brand. And to celebrate 60 years of their being, they created a film called which spoke about how a two seater sofa is handed down generations from one person to another person through 60 years.

Okay. And it’s a fabulous story. It begins with a shy, newly married woman who brings two seater sofa as a gift to a new home and she travels on a boat to the new home and the sofa is coming on the boat along with her to the new home, and it’s a happy place and then years later, she marries her kid sister, and then she refurbishes this sofa and gives it to her sister as a gift.

And now it becomes the sister’s sofa. Decades down the line, the sister’s son becomes a collector, district collector, and he gets married. So she refurbishes it again in a bright blue, turquoise blue And this becomes the sofa of the daughter in law. Again, decades later, this daughter in law has a daughter who’s grown up and she is in love with a Bengali guy.

And the two of them like to cuddle around in that sofa, which is now refurbished again in a new fabric. So the storyline that they say, it’s in the Indian context, sharing and reusing is so much part of the culture. Correct. And it wraps us in nostalgia. You see this happening in Indian families and therefore people are able to connect it with very well.

And the underlying message from Fevicol, it’s so apparent that if it is made with Fevicol, it will last you for generations. And it is sustainable, correct? I think it’s a beautiful message of sustainability, and you can place all the five Rs through the cycle, correct? Repurpose, reuse, everything kind of it qualifies for that from the ESG perspective.

Yeah, so it’s beautiful storytelling. It brings in the Indian sustainable practice of reusing, and it reinforces the brand’s messaging beautifully as well. That’s perfect. I love the example. Thanks for sharing that. So as we come towards the end of this podcast, I would love to hear what are the emerging trends.

What should we be thinking about staying ahead? What is the future for ESG storytelling? I’d love to hear that from you as a professional who has been here on this journey. Some of the emerging trends that I see is the regulatory landscape, it continues to evolve and we see a heightened need to show clear, measurable and actionable transition plans to net zero.

Yeah. So for you to as a company to stay ahead, it’s important that you demonstrate how your ESG initiatives are contributing to financial stability and growth. That is very important. And then the other trend is that increasingly investors are also integrating ESG factors into their financial analysis.

They are seeking to understand how the ESG issues of your company will impact your long term financial performance. So that part also becomes important that you demonstrate it in your storytelling. Like you earlier said that the E part of ESG that has been spoken about the most, but now we see that increasingly there’s a greater emphasis on social equity and diversity as well.

There’s a growing scrutiny on this and even the stakeholders are demanding more transparency in this aspect as well. And not just this, even there are new frontiers in biodiversity and nature capital coming in. There’s increased guidance and novel disclosures coming up. So all of these aspects, it’s necessary that we keep in mind while we are doing our storytelling.

But the most important factor which I feel is that you also need to create an organizational culture that prioritizes ESG. True. And yeah, it prioritizes ESG values and integrates them all into all aspects of operations. And I also see there will be a growing need to engage employees and leadership alike in your ESG efforts to drive that meaningful change.

Thank you so much. I think it’s very well said, and you connected all the dots together from what are the future trends as such, and that as we started saying that ESG is starting to going to be everybody’s responsibility at every stage in an organization, both internally as well as externally, because it’s going to be from our vision as an organization, we could adopt a lot of things that you’re seeing, but now we’re going to start holding accountable our suppliers, our people who are in our ecosystem as well. And it’s going to be something that we influence either consciously or because it’s just a part of what we do.

We’re just going to bring them along, so I think you’ve given us beautiful examples of how to do it and what we should be conscious about as we plan these strategies for ourselves and everybody who’s walking along with us. So it’s been a pleasure talking to you, Shubha. Is there anything else before we sign off?

Is there anything last words you want to say to our audience? Yeah, one point that I would like to talk about is that the ESG journey is one of building relationships with your stakeholders, and it’s not a one time event. It’s a continuous process of building that relationship. It’s a marathon. It’s not a sprint.

It’s like you plant a seed and you nurture it consistently till it bears fruit. And we should not lose sight of that. Thank you for that beautiful insight and a beautiful way to end our conversation. Thanks for your time and it’s been a pleasure having you on our podcast. Thank you, Shubha.

Thank you, Sai. It was a pleasure for me too. Thank you.